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Post by mmccurry on Jul 26, 2016 0:54:26 GMT -5
I've been doing research on my geneology and I found out that I had some ancestors from luxembourg. I have a lineal ancestor who was born in 1844 became a US citizen somewhere around 1874 and died in 1925. Does anyone know if that would make me eligible for citizenship? Would luxembourg consider him to have been a citizen in 1900?
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Post by twoj on Jul 26, 2016 9:40:21 GMT -5
If you really want to know you will need to contact the nationality hotline; Free national phone number: 8002 1000 For international calls: +352 247 88588 From Monday to Friday, from 8.30 a.m. to 12 p.m. and from 1.30 p.m. to 5 p.m (Luxembourg time)
My personal opinion is no, the point I think of 'reclaiming' nationality is that because the law in Luxembourg prior to 2008 was that you could only hold one nationality, so you were either a Luxembourger or you were not, so for many Luxembourgers who left they 'lost' their nationality when they became citizens of other nations. I don't know why the date of 1900 was chosen, that the ancestor of whom you are descended had to have Luxembourg nationality at that date, but that was the criteria that they established. So if your ancestor had US citizenship around 1874 he or she would have lost their Luxembourg nationality at that time, hence they would not meet the criteria of having Luxembourg nationality in 1900. You might want to dig a bit further back and see if that ancestors parents perhaps had Luxembourg nationality and were still alive in 1900 - a longer shot but as I said I don't think they will consider him/her eligible.
But do the research and then contact the hotline and see what they have to say. Best of luck!
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Post by mmccurry on Jul 26, 2016 13:59:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the help. According to this blog post trevoreischen.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/luxembourg-citizenship-phase-1/ at least, it shouldn't matter that he became an american citizen and as far as I can tell the guy who wrote that has his citizenship now. I'll try to verify that before I get too far into the process though. Will I be able to call the hotline in english or do I need to find a german or french speaker to do it for me?
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Post by twoj on Jul 26, 2016 19:16:20 GMT -5
The article is Trevor's - the person who created this forum. I talked to him prior to starting my application. I looked at Trevor's article - funny I never saw it before, I looked at the powerpoint presentation cited in the article, and then I looked at article 29 on the website of the Ministry of Justice and finally I am confused. Trevor and the powerpoint presentation are saying that even if your ancestor was born in Luxembourg prior to 1900, and was alive in 1900, regardless of their nationality status in 1900 they would be eligible to be your aieul. then from the ministry; "qui possédait la nationalité luxembourgeoise à la date du 1er janvier 1900, et être le descendant en ligne directe paternelle ou maternelle de cet aïeul." which translate to 'the ancestor ... who had Luxembourg nationality on 1 Jan 1900, and is the decendant ... The main point being that the ancestor had lux nationality in 1900, if Trevor's ancestor had renounced the Luxembourg nationality prior to 1900 then normally she would not have lux nationality in 1900 and hence not be eligible according the publication from the Ministry.
So I was going by what the Ministry says, if Trevor says that condition was not really applied then perhaps you do have the possibility of getting the nationality, I know that Trevor has the lux nationality. It seems that the case is that the official phrasing of the article might not be what they are really accepting.
You will still need to get the official word from them, they speak English you should have no problems, I suggest you get the name of the agent you speak with so that you have some proof of the conversation. Alternately you can email them and explain the situation and you will have some written proof of the answer.
If you do get a reply it would be helpful if you can post what they say, since it seems that the difference is a pretty big one between the 2 cases.
thanks
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Post by mmccurry on Jul 26, 2016 22:14:12 GMT -5
I think the issue might be what distinction Luxembourg makes between citizen and nationality. Everything I've seen so far says they have to have been a Luxembourg national but they don't say anything about being a citizen. I'm guessing that they're using nationality in the sense of what nation a person was born in as opposed to what their legal status was under the law at the time, but I could definitely be wrong. My understanding is that a large number of people lost their citizenship because Luxembourg didn't allow dual citizenship at the time and this law was meant to fix that so it wouldn't really make sense for them to hold citizenship in another country against him. It looks like other people in the same situation as me have gotten their citizenship, so I'm going to continue working on getting all of the records I need. In the meantime, I'll try to call the hotline soon and I'll let you know what they say.
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Post by twoj on Jul 26, 2016 22:53:38 GMT -5
I see your point about not being penalized for losing nationality, for your sake I hope you are correct. Although I also see your point on citizenship vs nationality - that is a quagmire of semantics, you can look on wiki for definitions of citizenship & nationality but there are always exceptions, my nationality would be Canadian since I was born in Canada, however I am also have French nationality through marriage - if you read the wiki article it says Nationality "...denotes to the country where an individual has been born". Now since I was born in Canada I can't be born in France - logical but incorrect - according to France I was born in France at the same time - this freaks out my mother of course. And part of the process in claiming French Nationality is that you need a French birth Certificate saying that even if I was born in Canada that it would be equivalent of saying I was born in France and therefore I am a French National. All this to say that even if you should have only one nationality there are cases where you can have multiple defending on the framework of the country.
Also in French culture, including Luxembourg it is more common to speak of nationality then citizenship, to me it seems the words are almost switched between English and French. If you look at the official statements of the law, they talk about nationality rather than citizenship.
Yes as I said, only the ministry of justice can give you a clear answer in this case. If it is the case then it would seem that would open up for more applications. Good Luck
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Post by mmccurry on Jul 26, 2016 23:16:18 GMT -5
Yeah I've never heard nationality used in a strict legal sense and it's also being used in another language where it could have different connotations. I'll just have to see what they say. Is this the right place to email about it? Ministry of Justice
Office of Indigenous Affairs (Service de l'indigénat)
Centre Administratif Pierre Werner
13, rue Erasme
Luxembourg-Kirchberg
PO Box L-2934 Luxembourg
nationalite@mj.public.lu
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Post by twoj on Jul 27, 2016 6:49:00 GMT -5
yup, that's the place - my experience is that I had to hound them with several emails before I got a reply. also this is a time when a lot of people are on vacation so expect delays. Good luck
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Post by mmccurry on Jul 28, 2016 1:43:06 GMT -5
I called the hotline and he told me that I would have to talk to a different department which is only open from 8:30-11:30. I've sent them an email so now I'm just waiting on an answer. Here is the contact information he gave me in case it's useful to someone else: +352 247-84532 nationalite@mj.public.lu.
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AdA
New Member
Posts: 28
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Post by AdA on Jul 30, 2016 8:42:04 GMT -5
As twoj said, there is no difference in French between being a national and a citizen (for nationality purposes - the only difference is one could lose one's civic rights but still is considered a national). From what I read on another forum/site (and sorry I can't remember which one, all I remember is that it was a French-speaking one), you have to prove that your ancestor was Lux. sometime on or after 1.1.1900. If your ancestor was Lux. say in 1905, it meant he was Lux. in 1900 because he could be only Luxembourgian and nothing else.
One way to prove this in France is to look for people living in the same city where he lived (recensement) in the National Archives and look for something that said he was alien. Well, if it's your case, I can explain to you in greater detail. But my point is that there are a few ways in each country to do that. That said, if your ancestor got his US citizenship before 1900, you're not eligible. That said, I think that's worth talking to the Infoline anyway, you might learn some useful stuff.
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Post by mmccurry on Jul 30, 2016 21:05:12 GMT -5
According to this thread: luxcitizenship.freeforums.net/thread/18/definition-luxembourg-nationality-prove-ancestrywomen usually didn't bother to get naturalized at that time period, because they weren't really given any of the rights a citizen would normally have anyway. My ancestor's wife was also from Luxembourg and lived until 1912. I think to be on the safe side I'm going to try to find her birth certificate and trace back to her instead. If she did ever become a US citizen I at least don't have any proof of it whereas I actually have a copy of my male ancestor's naturalization papers. If I ever hear back from Luxembourg about my original question I'll post it here.
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Post by twoj on Jul 31, 2016 9:13:58 GMT -5
My ancestor's wife was also from Luxembourg and lived until 1912. I think to be on the safe side I'm going to try to find her birth certificate and trace back to her instead. If she did ever become a US citizen I at least don't have any proof of it whereas I actually have a copy of my male ancestor's naturalization papers. If I ever hear back from Luxembourg about my original question I'll post it here.
The ancestors wife could work as well, I just don't know if they would want you to prove that she didn't have another nationality (ie US). Perhaps someone else could comment on this situation, I'm curious on how Luxembourg would verify that your male ancestor had naturalized to the US? Was there some agreement or process that existed at that time in which the person had to inform the Luxembourg government that they acquired another country's nationality? I want to be clear that I am not encouraging or promoting a false declaration, I am wondering what is the verification that someone from Luxembourg, who had naturalize to another country, whether that information is somehow relayed back to Luxembourg? I don't know the process of determining if the wife was ever a US citizen, if you can find out that she wasn't or if the situation is that you can not find that information, in good conscious I think that would make her your aieul.
For your communication with the ministry, usually they respond within 2-3 days, if you haven't heard back in 3-4 days I would re-send another email or call them again, as I mentioned this is vacation time over there and I can vouch that they don't always reply on emails.
Good luck
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Post by mmccurry on Jul 31, 2016 11:04:30 GMT -5
In the other thread I linked, one person claimed that Luxembourg didn't recognize US citizenship at the time so he would have had to have returned to Luxembourg and renounced his nationality to have lost it. I have no idea if that's true but he says that he was in the same situation and got his citizenship. Trevor also said there that he thought it was unlikely that Luxembourg would go digging around naturalization records from other countries and from everything I've seen so far, the only proof they require is that they were born in Luxembourg and were alive in 1900. I'm going to do more searching to see if I find naturalization papers for my female ancestor but I'm not sure it's really possible to prove that someone that far back didn't become a citizen, only that they did.
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Post by twoj on Jul 31, 2016 12:13:31 GMT -5
My take on it, is that like other countries that only permit their citizens to have one nationality (generally), ie Germany, Luxembourg prior to 2008, isn't that they didn't recognize US citizenship (this wouldn't make sense), it is that they wouldn't recognize (allow) a Luxembourg national to remain a Luxembourg national if they had gained US citizenship (or another country). My guess is that if the person reported to Luxembourg that they had another nationality they would lose the Luxembourg nationality, not they wouldn't recognize the US citizenship, just that you are a citizen of Luxembourg, or you are not, ie no dual nationality. I agree with Trevor that it is unlikely Luxembourg can investigate all these cases about Luxembourgers that may have become nationals of other countries in 1900 or prior, as you can imagine it is already difficult for family to find this information out. Going back to the statement I said before is that according to the wording of the law - the aieul HAS to be a Luxembourg national in 1900, but probably because in many cases it is too difficult or impossible to find out whether the aieul did take on another nationality once they left Luxembourg it becomes a bit of a loophole that they are allowing applications for aieuls whose nationality cannot be determined (by Luxembourg), and therefor assumed to still be considered Luxembourgian by lack of proof to the contrary. I'll re-iterate this is my take on it. Note also that your aieul (or decendants) may have communicated to the Luxembourg government and that they may know your aieul did lose nationality at one point, or they may not know and without proof, the aieul would have remained a national of Luxembourg till their death. So as my statement before I would think is correct - since your male Aieul you know he was an American citizen before 1900, and hence he would not be a Luxembourg national (by the law of Luxembourg that prohibited dual nationality) he would not be eligible as your aieul, however your female aieul since if you cannot determine if she was American in 1900 she would by default still be considered Luxembourgian (by Luxembourg) and hence be eligible as your aieul.
Let us know the developments!
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Post by mmccurry on Aug 2, 2016 3:20:43 GMT -5
I just got off the phone at this number: +352 247-84532. He told me unequivocally that it did not matter that he had become a US citizen before 1900, only that he was born in Luxembourg before 1900 and was still alive at that time. Incidentally I also found out that at that time period women in the US automatically gained citizenship if their husband did. I now know that this isn't relevant for reclaiming citizenship from Luxembourg, but it might be useful for anyone researching a female ancestor because it means that there would be no naturalization record even though she would have considered a citizen.
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