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Post by helena on Mar 24, 2019 8:09:04 GMT -5
As we all know, a Lux. male passes on his citizenship to his sons. Historically, he passed on his citizenship to his daughters until they married a non-Lux. citizen. Then, the daughter would take on the citizenship of her husband.
But,what about a situation like this: Man moved to US from Lux. He passed on his Lux citizenship to his American-born daughter. She then married a fellow American. Would she have lost her Lux. citizenship? She was already an American from birth.
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Post by twoj on Mar 24, 2019 10:03:45 GMT -5
I think you need to consider the context, prior to 2008 Luxembourg like other coutries (notably Germany) had single nationality, you were a Luxembourger or you were not, hense the reason why for most people when they left Luxembourg they took the nationality of the country they immigrated to and lost their Luxembourg nationality. If you applying this more specifically to the USA prior to 2008, males and female luxembourgers who immigrated would lose their luxembourg nationality if they took the US citizenship which was normal when you immigrated at that time. Woman in the USA prior to immancipation (before 1920s) were in a bit of limbo since there was no requirement to have your nationality declared until that time.
To your question, the context is important since if a Luxembourger (male or female) moved to the US prior to 2008 the question is, did he/she take the US nationality? if he/she did then technically they lost the Luxembourg nationality so there was no Luxembourg nationality to pass on if he had the American nationality at the time of her birth. Also because of the American Jus Soli the daughter would have the right of American Nationality but if she had the US nationality then she couldn't have had the Luxembourg nationality. The parents would have had to have made the proper moves to retain their Luxembourg Nationality and that of their children with the intension of returning to Luxembourg. If they were immigrants the normal course of action would have been to take the US nationality at which point there is no Luxembourg nationality to pass on.
So without more specifics i would doubt that the daughter ever had Luxembourg nationality.
I believe this in part was the reason why they allowed people from 1900 forward to reclaim the nationality, it might not have been their intetion to lose the Lux nationality but because of how nationality works in different countries they could have lost the nationality inadvertently.
Nationality was a more fluid concept before, most people now need to be declared as to which coutries they are belonging to.
hope that helps
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Post by helena on Apr 11, 2019 7:53:45 GMT -5
"American Jus Soli the daughter would have the right of American Nationality but if she had the US nationality then she couldn't have had the Luxembourg nationality. The parents would have had to have made the proper moves to retain their Luxembourg Nationality and that of their children with the intension of returning to Luxembourg. If they were immigrants the normal course of action would have been to take the US nationality at which point there is no Luxembourg nationality to pass on."
Not according to Artice 29/89. Lots of Americans re-acquired Lux citizenship without having to provide evidence of lack of naturalization. Moreover, most Lux immigrants in my area were farmers and never naturalized. They had children who automatically become U.S.citizens because they were born on U.S. soil. In fact, a number of Americans never lost Lux citizenship because they came from an all-male line.
I get that dual citizenship wasn't allowed. But, if an American-born male of Lux ancestry can maintain his US citizenship, I don't get how an American-born woman of Lux ancestry loses Lux citizenship upon marriage to another American. She's already American from birth.
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Post by twoj on Apr 11, 2019 9:25:48 GMT -5
"Historically, he passed on his citizenship to his daughters until they married a non-Lux. citizen"
This was my point - Historically (prior to the nationality law of 2008) this was not the case, children by default got the nationality of the new country and therefore lost the lux nationality.
"Not according to Artice 29/89"
- this law does not alter the fact that people lost the lux nationality, it says that Luxembourg is now accepting the fact that its citizens can hold more than just the Lux nationality, and that if you can prove that your lux ancestor had the nationality in 1900...
In Essence - the law prior to 2008 said the people had lost the lux nationality, after 2008 it accepts that the people 'could' have had the lux nationality as a second nationality.
"In fact, a number of Americans never lost Lux citizenship because they came from an all-male line."
This is incorrect since if that was the case, well take an example of some Lux person that had immigrated in 1885 to the US, his son, born in the US is now a US citizen, his son is a US citizen, and now his son is also a US citizen, according to what you are saying is that this 3 generation US male is also a Luxembourg national, in that case he would be able to to Luxembourg and ask for a passport right away as a Luxembourg national(citizen). I think you would agree that couldn't happen. Prior to 2008 this couldn't have happen either. Now (post 2008) they have the possibility to re-establish that lost nationality.
I think you need to start with the point of view that pretty much all lux descendants had lost the lux nationality. My father was born in Luxembourg but since he took Canadian nationality, i lost the lux nationality and had to apply to re-gain it. So the point is according to Luxembourg is that you need to prove, according to the rules of article 29/89 that you are a descendant of that lux national and to re-establish the nationality between that person and yourself.
"I get that dual citizenship wasn't allowed. But, if an American-born male of Lux ancestry can maintain his US citizenship"
- I hope you understand that the male only has the US citizenship - he has lost the lux nationality by being born in the US, same as the woman.
Now i have heard that there are people with all male lineage that didn't have to do the phase 2, i don't know why or how they determine who and who does not need to do phase 2, technically my application was all male lineage and i still had to do the phase 2 and i think i had probably one of the most clear-cut cases. it seems like you might have an easier time re-establishing the nationality if your lineage is all male, but it doesn't change that you have lost the nationality.
"I don't get how an American-born woman of Lux ancestry loses Lux citizenship"
What i think you need to understand is that even with the law of 29/89 is that she did lose the nationality, what the law gives is the possibility to re-establish if she meets the criteria give in the law 29/89. If she was born on Dec 31,1899 she is considered American under that law, if she was born the next day, Jan 1 1900, she 'could be considered' a Lux national.
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Post by helena on Apr 11, 2019 15:56:23 GMT -5
The Art 29/89 is basically done. No one can apply for Phase 1 at this point. So, no new applications can be submitted.
However,now that dual citizenship is allowed in Luxembourg, all-male lines can continue to apply. They weren't actually applying under Art. 29/89.
I get your point about loss of citizenship. However, the 2008 law seemed to magically restore citizenship to all-male lines. That's why some don't have to go for Phase 2 and sign paperwork in Lux. They are, in fact, considered to have been always Lux.
I don't know why you had to go through Phase 2 with an all-male line. Maybe you applied early, and the Ministry was still working on understanding everything.
But, I do know that now according to the law, those who skipped phase 2 are considered to have been always Lux.
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Post by twoj on Apr 11, 2019 19:27:37 GMT -5
Artical 29 was part of The Nationality Law of 2008 which was the law from 2008-2016, the current law of 2016 is the one that contains the Article 89, however i would specify that the possiblity to apply under the ancestor alive in 1900 case, is as you say, not available anymore. You can still apply under other cases.
"However,now that dual citizenship is allowed in Luxembourg, all-male lines can continue to apply. They weren't actually applying under Art. 29/89."
I don't believe this is the case for the first part, and it is incorrect for the second part. I am not aware of anywhere in the nationality law of 2016 (or 2008) that says you can reclaim because you have an all male lineage. What it does say is that children of lux nationals (men & women) can apply even if you are not living there or have another nationality.
"However, the 2008 law seemed to magically restore citizenship to all-male lines"
I agree, i don't know why there was a benefit to an all male-lineage, to me it should be applied equally, however I can attest it isn't (wasn't) always the case.
Is it that the re-establishment of lux nationality isn't being applied equally between men and women that has you upset or is it some other reason?
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Post by Helena 1 on Apr 13, 2019 5:31:03 GMT -5
The all-male line IS ongoing. (I believe people are applying under Art. 7 for this.) Others with this line have contacted the Ministry. The Ministry has confirmed that there is no deadline for those with an all-male line. (I agree with you that it isn't an explicitly stated law. There were whispers about it for a long time. BUt, it is true.)Also, those who have a grandparent or parent who is a Lux. citizen may still gain citizenship.
No, as far as my "magically restored" comment, I mean that even though dual citizenship used to not be allowed, it seems that it's like that ban never existed. All-male lines (and all-time lines with women born after a certain date) received a certificate of nationality that shows they never lost Lux. citizenship. They've always been Lux.
I'm not upset. I have a while before I hear back about my application, and I'm looking for loopholes. I know that others with similar, imperfect, applications have been allowed to re-acquire citizenship. My Lux. ancestor passed his citizenship onto his daughter, but she married an American before 1900. Some have still received citizenship with a similar line.
THat, and looking for reasons for a possible challenge to a denial in court.
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Post by twoj on Apr 13, 2019 15:22:00 GMT -5
The Case 7 is "Adults having fulfilled the obligations arising from the Welcome and Integration Contract" - I don't see in what way (in case 7 or any other cases in the law of nationality) a descendant, regardless of lineage could apply now. If they are allowing only all-male lineage applications now, i don't see the basis in the nationality law. The case 4 specified that you can apply if you have a parent, but not a grandparent.
As i said i agree that it seems that in some case all male lineage is considered differently, but i have never heard (with authority) of why, nor have i ever seen a difference in the actual law, so i think there is some merit of that discrepancy in the written law and how it is applied for some people.
I am no expert on US law, US Nationality, nor how Luxembourg determines who is considered a proper aieul (ancestor), but i wish you good luck with obtaining the acceptance of your ancestor.
I'm not sure if you could even challenge such a decision if she was not accepted, if you could it would be a very expensive and challenging undertaking.
So i wish you the best of luck and let us know what the result is.
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Post by Helena 1 on Apr 13, 2019 23:29:09 GMT -5
It's not Case 7. It's Art. 7.
When you read Art 7, it doesn't seem like it covers what others have said it covers. But, after hearing people report back directly from the Ministry, it does. Flavia Bley who has a business helping people re-acquire citizenship contacted the Ministry. It was confirmed that, yes, male lineage is ongoing.
If denied, one can appeal through the courts. It's actually written directly on denial letters. Not sure I'd appeal, but I'd probably have a case based on the fact that others with nearly identical cases were granted citizenship. So, I'll just have to be patient and see how this plays out.
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Post by lynjenks on Dec 28, 2019 18:14:38 GMT -5
It's not Case 7. It's Art. 7. When you read Art 7, it doesn't seem like it covers what others have said it covers. But, after hearing people report back directly from the Ministry, it does. Flavia Bley who has a business helping people re-acquire citizenship contacted the Ministry. It was confirmed that, yes, male lineage is ongoing. If denied, one can appeal through the courts. It's actually written directly on denial letters. Not sure I'd appeal, but I'd probably have a case based on the fact that others with nearly identical cases were granted citizenship. So, I'll just have to be patient and see how this plays out. I'd be interested in a conversation offline with you about legally challenging Article 7. My great-grandfather emigrated to the US and married an American woman. His wife gave birth to my grandmother before he naturalized as an American Citizen in 1922. I find it pretty shocking that if my blood relative (Grandmother) had been a man, Luxembourg would still recognize that my father and his children were eligible for reclaimed citizenship. But because the blood relative was a woman, our family claim is now lost. For a country with such a strong record of gender equality, Article 7 is shameful. |
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